the research beat podcast
#10 Great Journeys and Graphene: Crossing a Continent in the Name of Research
Join us in episode 10 as we chat to Maheera Ghani about her incredible journey from Pakistan to Western Europe, in search of a solution to the challenges of tomorrow's information industry. Do you know what goes into the devices you carry in your pocket? Plus, we talk about the changing role of women in the sciences, and discuss the scientific (yes) principles of baking.
Full transcription of the interview


Jordan: [00:00:00] Oh, very warm. Welcome to The Research Beat. Today's guest is Maheera Ghani PhD in Material Science at the University of Cambridge. A little bit later, she'll be telling us about her remarkable academic journey across a continent. But for now, let's meet our guest. Maheera, welcome to the show.

Maheera: Thank you very much, Jordan, for inviting me here.

Jordan: It's a pleasure to have you, Maheera. Can you start by telling us a little bit about your research?

Maheera: So, uh, currently we see high demand of data storage for many computing applications, and these processes have high energy consumption. In future, the demand for ICTs will lead to even more consumption of energy and, in future, we require devices which are even smaller than current technologies and in semiconductor industry.

If you have heard of Moore's Law, that has been the guiding principle for progress in industry for over 55 years. It states that [00:01:00] roughly every two years, the number of transistors or devices on microchips will double. And this is what we see at the moment as well, how the size of the first fund that was developed changed to a smartphone.

However, with border device scaling for future, we need new, electronics to be energy efficient as well. So the current silicon-based technologies, face limitations of energy efficiency with device scaling. So that is the motivation for my research at the moment.

Jordan: So there's going to be a very high demand in the future.

For these, tiny devices, transistors and things like this, and this is motivating your research.

Maheera: Exactly. Because if you see the way, the, artificial intelligence and other, applications, for example, we will have quantum computing in the future and we will require higher, storage application in the future.

So this is [00:02:00] the kind of like the bigger picture behind the idea.

Jordan: So there's going to be a real demand for this. Can you tell us a little bit in detail about these 2D materials that you work with?

Maheera: So, basically the isolation of graphing at the University of Manchester in 2004 led to the discovery of a whole new family of two dimensional materials.

So these materials are very interesting in a sense that they have pristine surface without any dangling bonds as compared to the 3D materials. So you can imagine number of one atomic take layer. Stacked vertically together, which make up basically a 2D material. The interesting thing is that you can peel off these layers and try to use them in different applications.

And since the, first discovery of graphing, this wheel has grown exponentially and has shown potential in , various applications. So [00:03:00] these 2D materials are structurally perfect. In other words,

Maheera: Yes, they are, but , they differ from the 3D materials that we see normally, but they, there are materials which has layer structure inside, and it comes from the difference in the bonding of these materials.

Jordan: And you mentioned graphing there. So what exactly is graphing, Where does it come from and, and how do we use it in the kind of work that you're talking about?

Maheera: So graphing is, you can say a carbon aro. So in carbon based materials we have diamond, and then the other material is , graphing. So the difference in both of them lies and the type of, an orbital arrangement they have, which gives this graphing very unique structure. So basically we get, uh, carbon atoms, arranged in a comb latice, and these lats make one layer. And if you see a , graphite, which is [00:04:00] bulked form or graphing graphite, is basically. Number of graphing layers stacked together that we see from an naked eye. But actually graphing is just one thin layer that actually makes up graphed.

So it's very interesting that , we were able to discover new family of materials by the isolation of the, graphing from graphite, which happened in University of Manchester and also, the people who discovered got the Nobel Prize for that. So it explains a lot.

Jordan: It does indeed. And we actually use graphite in pencils, right?

Maheera: Exactly. Yeah. You actually, I think when we are writing with pencil, we're actually rooming a lot of graphing from the top of pencil, so,

Jordan: Okay. Wow. So it's like, it's almost like the isolation of the graphing, just if you're writing or sketching on a piece of paper,

Maheera: Yes, cause there can be graphing removed from the graphite there.

Jordan: So it's a really interesting material and it sounds like the, [00:05:00] almost the practical brother or sister of Diamond, uh, whereas Diamond is very beautiful. . Graphine is a little bit more practical. That has some everyday uses.

Maheera: Well, climate is also very practical in a lot of scientific applications. Uh, for example the tools or characterization of materials, but it's very fascinating how the same material carbon can have two different.

Kind of forms like in diamond and graphing and one is a bit softer than the other and how their applications are. It's very fascinating how the bonding, the chemical bonding in a material can give us many different properties. And this makes science very interesting.

Jordan: Absolutely. It's incredible how nature provides these different forms.

How do you actually utilize the graph? , in the kind of work that you mentioned,

Maheera: , so, uh, recently with a number of, [00:06:00] potential application that were researched using graphing had shown that it shows very good electrical properties, conductivity, and time properties. And with the research since 2004, many work shows how it can show potential in devices, electronic devices. So we have a potential of using graphing as a channel material for our transistors and devices. And it's a good, Basic research we can build upon that can provide a real life application where , we might see Graphine future for in industries incorporated in electronic devices.

So, the basic idea is to use graphine as a channel or maybe electrodes for different purposes.

Jordan: Very interesting. And, what other materials are you working with?

Maheera: So in my research work I primarily use 2D materials and, in 2D materials with time. We are seeing many other materials [00:07:00] now, which are showing properties such as far electricity.

So I will be using 2d, FAR electric materials actually. And these materials are very interesting in current world, and they have existed for quite a while. PE electrics and far electric materials, we see them around in many applications such as heat sensors around us. So they actually use these materials and they're becoming recently very interesting for memory storage applications.

Jordan: And, can you just explain exactly what a thorough electric material is?

Maheera: So for electric is, um, material, which when we, apply an electric field, it shows spontaneous polarization within the material. So there are material which have center of symmetry, which are central symmetric materials and. Their material, which, does not have a cent, we call non centro materials, which differentiates them.

And within these materials, they have the ability to produce a [00:08:00] dipole, and the dipole is basically the separation of negative and positive charge within the material. And when these DPO exists, and if we apply any external field, these DPOs will respond to that field and give us some net field inside, which generates the polarization effect.

And this polarization interestingly, remains within the material. Even if we remove the field, which is done as the remnant polarization. So the, the interesting thing is that even if you're not applying the field or voltage or providing any electricity from the external, Source, it might still show some field inside.

So it means that it has the ability to retain its polarization, which makes it very interesting. And we can also reverse the direction of polarization from one direction to another, which shows that , it can have [00:09:00] applications in memory storage.

Jordan: Mm. So is this mechanism also connected to the heat sensors that you mentioned as well as memory storage?

Maheera: For the heat sensors, uh, basically far electric materials come under the family of a big family, which is Dialectric materials where we have Peso Electrics and far electrics, and Al Electrics. So Peso electrics are material where we apply mechanical force on the, and it shows electric. Which is very interesting for a material like you apply a force on it and it's showing your electric field is like very cool actually.

And then you can do inverse with that also. So it's same goes for the material of heat answers like you are putting some heat input or providing some thermal energy and it is producing an electric field, which is like super amazing for materials to show this property.

Jordan: It's incredible that these devices that people use every day.

There are [00:10:00] these amazing mechanisms going on.

Maheera: Exactly, yes. And it's so interesting that, there are so many devices that use many material properties that might not everyone know about it, but it's so cool when you know about that.

Jordan: Exactly. If you know the kinda magic that's going on inside the device. I know when you make that call, I know what's going on inside your phone.

Maheera: That's true...

Jordan: Um, Tell us about how some of these materials are connected to climate change.

Maheera: So, It's very interesting because currently the information and computing technologies actually count for more than 2% of global emissions.

That puts ICTs carbon footprint equivalent to aviation industries emission from fuel, which is very surprising, but one of the most worrying. Models , predicts that electricity used by could exceed 20% of the global total by the time the child born today reaches their teens. [00:11:00] So with data centers using more than one third of that energy, it will.

Become alarming and detrimental to climate at one point. So this makes the, motivation of my research as well that, uh, the aim, the goal that we have in mind is not just, looking at the demand of the future, but also we have to think about, our world in the future or the earth or climate crisis as we are seeing a lot of examples current.

Around us. So, it has become one of the important points for a lot of research work in materials. So even we are working with materials, for example, they are mind or, from different places around the world. And there is carbon footprint with all the activities associated. So it is a big, challenge for, the scientists around the world and it is one of the important, consideration for everyone to think about how their research can cater this problem.[00:12:00]

Jordan: So interesting that the information industry is responsible for as much carbon output as the aviation industry. That's very true. And so your materials, the kinds of materials you are working on might life a greater efficiency, less heat emissions, things like this, which would hopefully reduce that carbon output.

Maheera: Yes, the idea is to work towards that, that how can we reduce the energy consumption and heat emission, because at the end, the energy that we consume come from different resources, fossil fuels and different of different ways, which all goes in the cycle of how our climate is getting affected.

Jordan: So in material science a little bit more broadly, what kind of development should we be looking out for over the next few?

Maheera: Well, this is very interesting and broad question, but, material science is a very interesting branch, which evolves with time and almost in every field. You can [00:13:00] see the importance of materials at the moment, it has grown from the aviation industry, aerospace industry to the life sciences and biological systems, uh, with the help of artificial intelligence.

Quantum commuting. Hopeful in the future over the next decade, there would be discovery of many new materials, which would like accelerate, further innovation in the technology and the functionally advanced materials that integrate into our everyday lives might help in improving the energy systems medicine.

Smartphones are much more, I feel.

Jordan: Again, It's so amazing that these, the materials are everywhere in your field. You're working with things that are really everywhere surround us. There are so many different objects, everyday objects. Yes. Lead from.

Maheera: Exactly. And it's very interesting for me because whenever I hear people working on other research fields and how we find an intersection with material [00:14:00] science, if whether you are from, uh, civil engineering or from other branches, if you're from chemistry, there is material science involved with the molecules that you're working with.

And it's very fascinating. And every material, that you see around has the property. And the important thing is that, How the research shares right now are trying to tailor the properties, like according to the new demands that we are facing, so we can really tailor the properties according to the requirements that we are looking for.

And these materials, different materials and different brands and families show really fascinating, potential in them.

Jordan: Material science seems to lend itself really well to kind of interdisciplinary.

Maheera: Yes, that's very true. Yes.

Jordan: So Maheera, we're going to turn now to a slightly different subject because you've taken quite a journey in your academic career so far, [00:15:00] across a whole continent.

So you took your undergraduate degree in Lahore, Pakistan. Before pursuing a Masters in Germany, in France. And finally, you reached your current PhD in Cambridge. Could you tell us what that journey across countries and cultures was like?

Maheera: , so. I would say that my journey has been very life changing and I absolutely enjoyed it.

, it has been challenging, but the diversity that I came across really helped me to see the importance of. The individuality of an individual person. I, I really developed respect for other cultures and also got more closer to my own cultural values. As when you're away, you begin to see the importance of that.

Yeah. And I believe no matter where you go, the sense of , being home is always inside you , which helps you to grow in different places. As like when I was moving from one place to another, I think. The way you evolve yourself [00:16:00] or grow helps you the most, no matter wherever you go. So it has been a wonderful learning journey and I was able to cherish a lot of friendships, which I enjoyed.

But yeah, there are always challenges involved.

Jordan: We'll get to the challenges in just a moment, but in that journey, you've taken quite a wide array of, research roles, research assistant roles, and it seems that you were really dedicated to the pursuit of research all the way through.

Have you always had that very clear idea that you wanted to do research and become a researcher?

Maheera: Well, I didn't have a clear idea if I would be a researcher from the start. I would say, well, while studying material engineering, I became very interested in the way materials impact the real-world applications.

Actually, uh,, actually I was very interested in aerospace materials and that was the reason I joined material science cuz I was very far fascinating by the planes and . I was surprised that we can play a role [00:17:00] in aerospace industry with materials. And by the end of my undergrad, I was very interested in biological side.

, I was seeing how there are materials that are helping in dental implants and I was enjoying that. Oh, we, I can go towards biological application , so from moving , from biological applications to the electronic material. I think I, I kind of, I, I went through a lot of different research areas which further made my interest.

My master's degree was more focused towards material physics and functional materials for electronics. So, which helped me to see the potential of growing myself into this field, I gradually become more interested in research and during these research assistant roles that I was able to do during my master's, I enjoyed playing on different projects, which ranged from, fabrication of transparent electrodes to using machine learning models, and [00:18:00] this helped me to identify my interest. So then I. Got, uh, interested in going and pursuing a career as a researcher.

Jordan: It sounds like one step led to the next, which led to the next.

Maheera: Exactly. I think it always progresses like this. So for, it's, it, it helps you to really understand that what you are really good at and what you want to work for.

Jordan: Very true. So you mentioned, that you were inspired in the first place by planes. Was it literally a case? Seeing airplanes in the sky and being inspired by thoughts about them.

Maheera: Yes, because I'm always surprised at how an object that is so heavy is in the sky and I am, which is much lighter, maybe like as a kid and I cannot even jump that high or like, Float in air.

I'm like, it really fascinates me, like, how does this happen that, I mean, there are a lot of people who can get on plane more than me, and then plane itself is so [00:19:00] heavier in rate and it stays in the air for long. And I was so, like, as a kid, I was always so surprised that I need to know how it's working and I, it's really inspir me

Jordan: , I think many people have the same question.

Maheera: Yes. I think I really push my question so much.

Jordan: is, is good. It's good to pursue the question. And I think at some point in your life, if you're thinking, you look at an airplane or you feel it whilst you're inside it and ask this, this thing is really heavy.

How, how is it possible to get it to fly through the sky? Yes.

Maheera: Like, if you think about it, this is very, it's insane. Like, you know, I, I mean I can really make myself fly. I like that.

Jordan: It would be nice. It would be nice. Yes. . , okay, Let's go back into , some of the challenges that you faced on this incredible journey.

Tell us a little bit about those.

Maheera: So I would say that, there were a lot of challenges along the way and that really taught me a lot during my [00:20:00] journey. So one thing that I was trying to get throughout my journey was that I want to enjoy as much as I can along with the challenges, because sometimes it's so easy that you face so difficult and your motivation and your passion can diminish with time because you are so scared to step forward.

So as interesting it sounds, um, moving from one country to another is very daunting actually, and you have to adjust to a new country. There are a lot of administrative tasks at each time, and it's a struggle sometimes around to, to meet new people and do your task on your own and to keep yourself motivated also, during this journey.

So this is sometimes challenging and, more over. The fact of adjusting into a new culture, coming from a different part of the world and moving to another continent, and you will have to totally, adjust to a new culture. There's a difference of food there, difference of [00:21:00] environment, whether your body will adjust to the new places.

So it's, it's a very challenging in a way that sometimes we don't. But, I would say that, it, it just teaches you a lot and helps you to know how much strong you are and how much more you can go out of your comfort.

Jordan: Very true. I think when you move from country to country, it's not just a kind of mental change, but also a physical change as well.

Maheera: Really that's not true because I, since I'm from Pakistan and the weather is not always that cold there, and initially in the start I had to get used to a less sunlight , and I was not very ready for that.

Jordan: I am from England and I understand there's problem very, very much . Very, very well. so in this next section, Maheera, we want to give you the chance to introduce some of the things that really matter to you well, some of the [00:22:00] biggest issues in academia for you today, what's on your mind.

Maheera: , I think it's, interesting that apart from, other challenges , in academic journey, there were , many points where I have to struggle. , With my motivation or my passion and, at many points it's very easy to fall into the trap of Impost syndrome because now you are not only competing in your country, but now you're outside and there are a lot of talented people out there, and , it's so easy that you might feel that, you have to do everything that everyone else is doing, but , at the same time, you might have something , that is so important.

Than others that you might just want to focus on, but you just fall to the trap sometimes and also, Thing that I think I've, I went through was also performance anxiety that we tend to perform at certain level or, we might push ourselves too much sometimes or set. I mean, it's very good to set goals to improve yourself, but [00:23:00] sometimes, we are very harsh.

So I think. , being perfectionist as an academia or a researcher is a bit hard because it's a very gradual journey, as they say. Like, you know, PhD or research is like a marathon. It's not a race. So you might have to take care of yourself on the way, which it's easy to forget ourselves. So this is one of the biggest challenges is, is that we might, To take care of ourselves in the way, and we get so much into the work that we might get anxiety or imposter syndrome.

So it's, uh, it's difficult sometimes to keep yourself, aware of the issues that you might go through. And, and other thing which I also felt was that. , as a woman in STEM field, I kind of in the start faced challenge of having a lack of role model around me that could motivate me much because I would feel, There are a lot of women now when I come outside, but sometimes I would feel, lack of women that I can connect with [00:24:00] who are working in the same field and who are so passionate about materials and sciences.

But now I'm very surprising that, I'm able to connect them at a point now after doing my undergrad and being here. And, uh, I see a lot of good, the young grand of minds coming in, future .

Jordan: So, although at first you were not able to see and identify those role models as you continued on your journey, they've kind of come into your world.

I think

Maheera: this happens because , if you see that , in the, long history of mankind, the role of women that they played for scientific research and many other discoveries sometimes , Does not come to highlight. And we might see some examples and uh, we might really want to see some new examples.

A lot of women taking all over the world. So it really encourages, us for someone who's just ending up high school and that might really boost her, [00:25:00] motivation.

Jordan: exactly. We would hope that you will be an inspiration as well through this podcast to, to

Maheera: others. Listen, this has my motivation in the start that I felt like , if I couldn't do that, maybe like someone would be in like field, someone would feel that you can do that.

I don't know if I'll be the inspiration, but I think I can tell that. I mean, you can go ahead further and, and see yourself .

Jordan: Exactly, And likewise on imposter syndrome. Is it a case of the confidence coming as you take the steps through your journey, Even if at first you feel like, What am I doing here?

I don't belong in this world.

Maheera: , it, I think it does get better. You get confident, but at the same time, I think it's easier that you become more and more. Nervous as well because, if, you know, there is one very famous graph where the more you know, the more you feel. You don't know . So it's [00:26:00] very common to feel that once you start your doctorate or then you are in research that.

You, you feel that, everyone around you might know a lot than you and that, you might feel, uh, less confident sometime because at every stage you go further and it's more harder than the previous sometimes. So, I think for. I would say , that that you get confidence, but the more important thing is to realize that you will get there with time.

So you need to give yourselves the time and learn during the time. I think what, I would say is that if we hurry to be at a point where we know as much as other people, it might be not good for ourselves. So we need to give our our times to grow .

Jordan: It's very much a mental journey and an individual journey, and.

And like you say, I think it's important not to rush and feel, pressured to go faster than you need to, but,

Maheera: um, I think, and it can apply to every other [00:27:00] field, like, uh, scientific research or , any other field. I think because I felt at one point in myself, this was the issue because, at as young age you were really very in hurry that you want to do that or do that and you want to do as much as you can.

And you will urbanize yourself and then you'll feel the poster and it's very easy. But I think now I've realized the importance of giving time and not really rush.

Jordan: Very good advice.

Najera will finish with, some questions about your, your personal passions , and about you as an individual. So what really drives you to continue on your academic?

Maheera: So science I think is for everyone, and it depends on how curious you want to be. You can go as much as far you want with science. For me, it's, it was always very fascinating to see how human brain [00:28:00] has worked, all this history of mankind and how the technology exists at the moment. This is of course, due to the input of many scientists that have been before us, and, Has been the part of this scientific impact, whether it's so small or big.

I think this really drive me that making an impact. In the research field, with myself, it's where it was very, fascinating and, more over the fact that I had discussed before that I always have been a very strong advocate of women pursuing scientific field. And during this journey, I, I came, I luckily came across many female scientists and researchers, and I saw them performing different leading.

And that really encouraged me that how the passion that I have for science can be, implemented if I continue to pursue my patient passion and how women are playing absolutely amazing role in the scientific world. [00:29:00] And I also hope that with this we are able to further help reduce the gender gap that exists in the STEM fields,

Jordan: And speaking of passion, How have you been able to use science communication to share your passion and your work with the wider public?

Maheera: Scientific research is, is really a way to connect , with the wider community, and it is very important as a part of a scientist, I feel, in terms of communicating with wider public.

I, I feel it's very important that. Life for all of us has become very technologically driven. And I think , there's a time when we all feel like we might be disconnected and there's always a, a need that we keep everyone, aware of the scientific research that going around. And it's very interesting for a scientist to make your research simpler for the wider community where they can understand it.

So well, I was actually involved in , scientific outreach during my undergrad with [00:30:00] primary school students. And we designed the kind of local experiments for primary school kids where they can actually see how , the science that they're reading in the notebooks actually is in, in the practical.

So I think this helps you really, understand the definitions and fundamentals that you're trying to understand when you see them from the eyes. , and at the same time, I, I really, enjoy it now. After my undergrad and some years now, I'm actually involved more in, uh, having a discussion or training young girls , who would like to have research skills for the future career in stem.

The, the purpose for this is that we encourage women that they can follow their ambitions in science and engineering, and they might be coming up with challenges such. Finding the career path and , how to reach, at a certain point by making applications and different scholarships. So this is very interesting when I see the interest of people around.[00:31:00]

And, yeah, I like doing that and keeping in touch with , the wider public.

Jordan: It's wonderful work. What do you think is the reason that there may be a kind of gap, between the genders in stem? Is there something , you could pinpoint? What do you feel is is causing it?

Maheera: Well, I would personally, as a woman, I would feel , I've seen like throughout the world because, since I moved from one part of the world to other, I feel the gender gaps exist almost everywhere.

It might be less somewhere or more somewhere. The reason for that is, I think, it stemmed,, previously from times when it was believed that, female might not be able to fully, use them into capability for scientific applications. However, we see many scientists from the previous centuries, or, female scientists have played important role and also the role that, sometimes is associated with female.

How handling the [00:32:00] family and personal life, which always comes a question if you are a female, but which, which I think is becoming, important now because, both male and female understand their responsibility as a role. And now I think, female are realizing that, it's important for them to be more financially independent, more.

Independent in terms of their career path and career goals, and they are coming more in the field and playing equal role like men, which is kind of the thing which will help us build a gap. And I think this will be better in future for the coming generations.

Jordan: Fantastic. Maheera. What do you do in your free time to keep yourself balanced?

Maheera: Well, I do a lot of activities actually. I think it tells me take off my mind from research and after this small break, when I come back I feel a bit more, motivated to work and I can think better, but I actually really love traveling. I think this is what I [00:33:00] really picked up during my time in Masters in Europe.

I really like to explore news. It is if I can get time and the most important thing that I enjoy is like history and architecture. So I really. Looking at historical building, then I go through their history. But in a short time, I also try to do sports, which is very important. If you are working in research, it's very, it's very important because more you are physically active, makes you mentally active as well, so, Well, I, I really like playing basketball that I had.

Been playing for a long time, but I have to continue playing that. And I also like baking . So there are a few activities that I do like, but it's off and on. Sometimes I enjoy a few activities and sometimes others, so it's like, uh,, helps you keep yourself balanced.

Jordan: I completely agree that, uh, physical activity is so important.

Yeah. If your work is intellectual or mental, Physical [00:34:00] work, exercise, sports, give you energy and allow your mind to work more effectively.

Maheera: , And uh, also for your own health, it's important. Yeah.

Jordan: and , do you think there's a kind of scientific element to baking ?

Maheera: It's very interesting because, uh, every, every time, like I mention about baking, it's , it's very opposite to the way I would feel about my work and everything.

But I think it was, it was very cathartic to me when I started baking, uh, basically it was my undergrad, time when I started baking and I would really enjoying. For working around and to really take my time off. And also the end product was I'll get to eat the cake. And it was really one of my favorite activities at that time that no matter how stressed I was, I would go home and like, At the end, I had a lot of baking instruments and utensils to work with.

Jordan: He's definitely a magic moment when the cake finally comes out of the [00:35:00] oven.

Maheera: Yes. I mean, like it does give you... but yeah, I mean, this is something I really enjoyed at one point.

Jordan: Wonderful. Maheera, who are your inspirations, either in academia or in the wider world?

Maheera: Well, I would say, I really follow some of the famous, I mean they're famous now.

Uh, they're CEO of Solvay, Ilham Kadri. She's currently a CEO and I really feel inspired from her. She was a Moroccan lady in how she worked away in firstly, other scientists. She moved to France. Now she is the CEO of a really big multinational company, and I really see her commitment to the work, her effort.

And I actually like because she as a woman, struggle to make her way, which I really, liked the way she was so committed to her passion, which was one of my inspirations, uh, [00:36:00] currently, which I see, and there are many more, to be honest now, I feel like really, there are so many women right now around.

In Cambridge, I see, different scientists and PhD researchers, and it totally fascinates me. What particularly for material scientists? I think Marie Curie is inspiration for many. I mean, I think she has been role modeled for women across the world for a long time with her sense of commitment that she showed towards science till her death is remarkable, not only in Physics, but also in Chemistry and the way she had to go through quite a struggle from moving from Poland to France and how she worked through Europe and also had Nobel Prize at the end. It's a very, remarkable, I would see for a woman at that time.

Jordan: Your journey echoes hers in some ways?

Maheera: No, I wouldn't really say because, uh, I think at that time when she tried to move [00:37:00] from her country to another, it was really difficult for women because not, all the institutes admitted women at that time. And, it was actually the case because I think she wasn't admitted in one of the universities because they don't take women, they don't enroll women. So, I think the challenges at that point were even more.

Jordan: Mehera. How can our listeners reach you if they're interested in contacting you?

Maheera: Well, I'm active on Twitter at @MaheeraGhani, and I am also active on LinkedIn, so they can reach me there.

Jordan: Wonderful, Maheera. it's been an absolute pleasure to have you today and to hear about your journey.

Maheera: Thank you so much, Jordan. Same here. I really enjoyed talking today!